//M or Alpina?

[mab1957]

The Alpina is a very attractive car, we all agree on that. I'm particularly fond of the e28, e30 and e34 based models. I know they're extremely scarce and apparently don't trade very often. But I have to ask myself; Why pay a premium to get an Alpina when an //M in the same body style is readily available, performs just as well (caveat below) and has parts available at a slight premium vice an extraordinary premium if available? :eek:

I recently reread Roy W's comparison article in Hemmings:
Some folks asked for a scan of this article, which I was unable to do. However, it's now up on their website, but I'm not sure if this link will give you the whole article or just a start... will see??

-RoyW

http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/2010/08/01/hmn_feature2.html
I understand the turbo makes all the difference, but we can buy those for an M20/M30/S38 now. Is the Alpina cachet really worth the +$20k USD (then add import fees) when the same performance can be achieved in a turbo or high-compression modified //M while also retaining a high resale value?

[AlpinaMan]

Well, I know where you are going with this, but it doesn’t work that way, many people have done this in the past and came to the conclusion that after modifying the whole engine and other components to install the aftermarket turbo properly, the expense will be staggering and the end result would not be something near the factory made turbo application in terms of functionality and long gevity.

Let me give you another example:

Let say the Lamborghinis and Ferraris are the most desirable cars in the world in the eyes of most people, now if you can’t afford to buy one you could always buy a Pontiac Fiero and order a Lambo or Ferrari fiberglass body kit off the internet and install that on Pontiac Fiero chasse and make it look like a Lambo or Ferraris. In you opinion would that conceder a Limbo or Ferrari? And do you get the recognition for the kit car?

So, for this reason lots of enthusiast including myself would want the real thing instead of slapping aftermarket stuff on a BMW. Also as you know there will always be camaraderie between the car collectors in regards to the authenticity and the originality of their Alpinas. So the question of turning an M car to something else to go faster then an Alpina, yes you can but in my opinion I would rather to pay the money once and knowing that I got what I wanted.

[mab1957]

I understand your position, but I'm not talking kit car, rather BMW and recognized high performance BMW tuning (Alpina, MK, Hartge, H&B, M-Technic, Dinan, etc.). If there were more Alpina cars available I'd love to have a stable like Roy with one of each, but I can't even find an e28 based Alpina, much less a B7turbo on the market. That's why I think they're more expensive - scarcity. Take art for example, Picasso or Monet, there're not many of either so collectors pay up to hang one on their wall. Many other paintings will be pleasing, but their's are exceedingly rare and highly sought after. A BMW M535 costs more than a 535is but not nearly as much as a B9 3.5. Performance is similar so that can't be worth 3x the price, nor is the deko kit and upholstery. Must be a scarce commodity with a strong collector appeal.

Alpinaman, do you think there will be a movement in Alpina prices and if so will they only become more expensive?

[Stirling]

This is an interesting discussion. I think your comparison with Picasso and Monet is a good one. It seems that in situations like this there is some subjective factor that is driving up prices.

Take the Mercedes 190e 2,5-16v Evolution 2. These change hands for north of $50,000, even in Japan. Why? There are any number of current vehicles on the market that will smoke an Evo 2 in a straight line, have more creature comforts, are far more reliable, and will be considerably less expensive to maintain. Yet I'd bet that nine out of ten guys on this forum would take the Evo 2 over, say, a Nissan 350z, myself included.

And I haven't yet figured out why.

Some sort of psychological shortcoming, imagine!

What i see with the Evo 2 also leads me to believe that once we're through the current debt crisis Alpina prices are headed skyward. They simply didn't make enough of them. Classic Alpina prices are likely to be helped along in North America if BMW continues to import the newer models, raising awareness of the brand with the wider motoring public.

[AlpinaMan]

It all goes to the rarity, and a small group of population in north America that goes after these type of cars such Alpina and welling to spend as much as it cost to just enjoy the ownership, also I agree with you regarding the Hartge and other tuner cars that are great to have.
Hey if you can offer me a price that I can

[RoyW]

Sorry to be so late to the party here... since this site is so new, I frequently forget to come and see what's happening:o

Anyway, I think we need to remember a few things, certainly as it relates to the early Alpinas like the B7 Turbo. 1) the 'M' cars from BMW didn't really exist in that body style at that time (other than the M535)... so there wasn't really a choice if you wanted the highest (at the time) performance from an e28. 2) Alpina was (and still does) also offering other things beyond engine performance to differentiate their cars from a standard BMW offering, e.g., suspension, brakes, exterior and interior aesthetics, etc.

It is certainly true that one can take just about any model of BMW and with good and proper after-market parts make it as fast, or faster, handle as good or better, brake better, and maybe even look better... and that's fine and I understand why people do it (guilty as charged :)) It's also likely that you'd spent less $ than the cost of the "M" or Alpina, and I'm sure it will be an enjoyable car, just know when it comes time to sell your modified car, you clearly will not recover much of your investment, and your car will probably be worth less than the stock model it started out as. BTW, I think personalizing one's car is great... I've done it to all my car, but there is a price to pay along the way and in the end :)

So, in my case, I purchased my Alpina for many reasons, and in the following order: its rarity, its look, its performance. Likewise with my e28 M5...same reasons. I enjoy both and appreciate their similarities (many) and differences (few). But, I'd prefer to have the real thing over a clone or modded car... even if the that car is faster or performs better than an Alpina or M car. This, for me, is even true as it relates to a car from a different era, i.e., I prefer my e28s to a modern BMW like a 335i... but, probably not a new M3 or M5 :)

Bottom line I'd say is: if you can't find what you'd like because its so rare or you don't want to spend the big $ it might take to get one, then modding a base car is a great way to go.

-RoyW

[Gaalpinaowner]

Mab - good discussion. There simply is little comparison to a E28 M car and a Alpina E28. As you know, I too have both. And both drive great and both are fast for what they are. But Alpina has the rarity, and the exclusiveness. Sure you can build a E28 to be a turbo killer but it will never be a Alpina or M5 ever.The value of alpina is in keeping it as close to stock as possible so alpina nuts go friggin crazy with mods for alpinas and not in a good way.
Seeing that there are only a handful or so of these of these B7turbos in NA they will command High dollars. Believe me there are 3 of us here on this thread that would probably let go of our Alpinas for the right price. But the right price would scare the hell out of you and everyone else...But the price is the price and if you want to play be prepared to pay! These cars will continue to rise in price. But will only have a certain small audience of perspective buyers. These buyers will see the value and will share what us 3 had..."I have to have that damn car" where as most will just shake their head in disbelief. The M5 seems to be holding stagnant in price, but more interesting is how the E30 M3 prices are on the rise. Glad this is the case (yea I have one these to). E28s have always had a rough time with increased pricing... It is a desirability thing I guess.

[Mark in Toronto]

The M5 seems to be holding stagnant in price, but more interesting is how the E30 M3 prices are on the rise. Glad this is the case (yea I have one these to). E28s have always had a rough time with increased pricing... It is a desirability thing I guess.

Excellent discussion. I would add to David's comments that e30 prices are indeed on the rise, in part due to the racing heritage of the car. It was promoted by BMW and other private racing teams in Europe and went head to head with the 2.3-16V model of the Mercedes-Benz W201 190E.

While there were fewer e28 M5's produced, both in Europe and NA when compared to the M3, the NA spec e28 M5 does not comand the same prices as the e30 M3 (with the exception of a handful of pristine low km examples). The majority of M5's going for less than 10k require extensive restoration/mechanical refresh due to, for example neglect and the fact they were/are drivers.

However, euro spec e28 M5's is another story altogether:

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDe.....XPORT&pageNumber=1